Tuesday, December 25, 2018

X Archives




365 PM: X [Quote] -- 6:35am -- Tue, Mar 15, 16 pst


Hillary can cram her high heel up my ass anytime.





360 PM: X [Quote] -- 6:34am -- Tue, Mar 15, 16 pst


I hope to be Hillary's eunuch, someday.





368 PM: X [Quote] -- 6:36am -- Tue, Mar 15, 16 pst


I can't wait for Hillary to fist me with her personal cell phone.





388 PM: X [Quote] -- 6:46am -- Tue, Mar 15, 16 pst


My face is Hillary's toilet paper.





401 PM: X [Quote] -- 6:56am -- Tue, Mar 15, 16 pst


Do you think Hillary would ever give me fisting lessons?





840 PM: X [Quote] -- 8:45am -- Tue, Mar 15, 16 pst


Call me diaper boy.





852 PM: X [Quote] -- 8:48am -- Tue, Mar 15, 16 pst


Fuck you all.





858 PM: X [Quote] -- 8:49am -- Tue, Mar 15, 16 pst


Drop dead assholes.





867 PM: X [Quote] -- 8:50am -- Tue, Mar 15, 16 pst


Suck my ass.





880 PM: X [Quote] -- 8:53am -- Tue, Mar 15, 16 pst


The Obamas can wear plastic shopping bags for all I care.

"Sad and Pathetic Moment

“It’s a sad and pathetic moment when on Christmas Eve the president of the United States is firing downer tweets in a petulant, loner mood,” said presidential historian Douglas Brinkley. “This is like Charles Dickens’s Scrooge on steroids.”



https://tinyurl.com/y99ahwrp

Monday, December 24, 2018

Journal Calls Trump out on Markets

Trump takes credit for Obama's economy until things head south; then suddenly Trump shifts the "credit" elsewhere.



"It is well known that President Trump invests fervent belief in the stock market as a performance measure. When it's rising, as it often has during his Presidency, he says that his policies are responsible. But what about a week like this with markets in decline, including a steep two-day drop in the Dow Jones average? No logic exists that will allow Mr. Trump to take responsibility only for sunny days."  - WSJ - December 20, 2018



https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-trump-volatility-risks-11545353881

Saturday, December 22, 2018

The Border Security Challenge

When the right wingers say our borders aren't secure, I challenge them to put their money where their mouth is.

Meet me in Mexico. Hand me your passport; then try to sneak back into the US.

If you succeed, I'll donate $10,000 to your favorite charity.

If you get caught, YOU donate $10,000 to Planned Parenthood.

So far, not ONE right winger will step up to the challenge.

Reagan Called for Open Borders

Trump claimed: “Even President Ronald Reagan tried for 8 years to build a Border Wall, or Fence, and was unable to do so.”



Now for the truth: 



"Rather than making them … we’re talking about putting up a fence. Why
don’t we work out some recognition of our mutual problems, make it
possible for them to come here legally with a work permit, and then
while they’re working and earning here, they pay taxes here? And when
they want to go back, they can go back and they can cross. And open the
border both ways  . . . " - Ronald Reagan



https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ronald-reagan-border-wall-idea/

Misty Decries Personal Attacks

9080 PM: Mistysea [Quote] -- 1:10pm -- Sat, Jul 14, 18 pst

Mistysea

The personal attacks are a tell tale sign of a battle lost.



[Does she mean  like this?]



8265 PM: Mistysea [Quote] -- 6:50am -- Sat, Dec 22, 18 pst

Mistysea

Arch is a miserable, mental defective RAT.

Friday, December 21, 2018

Sexiest Male

7481   PM:   Rubberduh   [Quote]     -- 9:48pm -- Fri, Dec 21, 18 pst
Rubberduh
who is the sexiest male specimen of chat?


7484   PM:   Tina   [Quote]     -- 9:49pm -- Fri, Dec 21, 18 pst
Tina
Doss, of course.

Russia Celebrates Trump's Incompetence

From the NYTIMES:



“Trump is God’s gift that keeps on giving,” said Vladimir Frolov, a Russian columnist and foreign affairs analyst. “Trump implements Russia’s negative agenda by default, undermining the U.S.–led world order, U.S. alliances, U.S. credibility as a partner and an ally. All of this on his own. Russia can just relax and watch and root for Trump, which Putin does at every TV appearance.”





https://tinyurl.com/y8x7awkk



https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/21/world/europe/russia-trump-foreign-policy.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

CaG Says Christ Give Us the Choice on Homosexual Marriage

5872 PM: Christians [Quote] -- 2:04pm -- Fri, Dec 21, 18 pst
Christians are Good
Christ allows free choice . . . .



So Christ is okay with homosexual marriage. Thanks to CaG for clearing that up.

CaG Chooses Darkness

CaG: And when you sold out your soul to support Trump, you made your choice.

5800   PM:   Christians   [Quote]     -- 1:48pm -- Fri, Dec 21, 18 pst
Christians are Good
There are but two choices - walk in light or darkness.

Pale's Hypocrisy on Question Doding

Oh, the irony. *S*

5749   PM:   Palerider   [Quote]     -- 1:32pm -- Fri, Dec 21, 18 pst
PaleRider
 . . .  you're avoiding answering . . .

Pale, Cowardice, and Stupidity

Pale:  Only STUPID cowards believe EVERYONE else is a coward too.

5577   PM:   Palerider   [Quote]     -- 12:30pm -- Fri, Dec 21, 18 pst
Palerider
grrl lawyer sure you are, just like everyone is afraid of dossets questions

CaG and Misogyny

5249   PM:   Christians   [Quote]     -- 10:31am -- Fri, Dec 21, 18 pst
Christians are Good
And then placed directly in front of a water cannon nozzle?

[ quoted: Dudley - Nancy Pelosi should be fitted with a cute yellow jacket that ties in the back. ]

CaG and Misogyny

5037   PM:   Christians   [Quote]     -- 8:54am -- Fri, Dec 21, 18 pst
Christians are Good
You've been duped. The mind of a woman.

CaG and Believability

4845 PM: Christians [Quote] -- 8:03am -- Fri, Dec 21, 18 pst
Christians are Good
No one believes anything you say.

CaG Embraces Trump

4760 PM: Christians [Quote] -- 7:44am -- Fri, Dec 21, 18 pst
Christians are Good
Trump is the best president the US has had for many decades. Finally someone competent to manage affairs.

Johnson Favors Government Tyranny over Women's Bodies

4454   PM:   Mwjohnson   [Quote]     -- 6:55am -- Fri, Dec 21, 18 pst
Mwjohnson

. . .  I believe it is moral to force pregnant women to have the baby . . .

Thursday, December 20, 2018

Right Wingers, Irrationality, and Fear of Answering Questions





There is a reason the right wingers hate questions.



They cannot defend their political views.



They KNOW they cannot defend their political views.



Any attempt to pressure them to TRY to defend their political views is seen as a personal attack against them.



In other words, they are simply irrational.



Wednesday, December 19, 2018

Snow Flaky Right Wingers

Just challenge them on their claims.......



7846   PM:   Doss   [Quote]     -- 10:53am -- Wed, Dec 19, 18 pst
doss - - - - - ''Who? Me? I've never heard of Russia!''
[Quoting Angelaa]: ''Clinton apparently lied about what he and Monica did...

 ''He apparently told the truth.

____________________________________



And they go personal . . .





7869   PM:   Angelaa   [Quote]     -- 10:57am -- Wed, Dec 19, 18 pst
Angelaa
Doss: You are still vile......
...And such a shit-stirrer
Have a nice Christmas..
back to my ignore *click*

Rhino and Racism

7613   PM:   Rhino   [Quote]     -- 8:08am -- Wed, Dec 19, 18 pst
Rhino
never know when the Indians here in texas may decide to rise up.. and attack the homestead

Tuesday, December 18, 2018

Johnson and Anger

5998   PM:   Mwjohnson   [Quote]     -- 7:57pm -- Tue, Dec 18, 18 pst

Mwjohnson

Geez, you are an angry lot.


Monday, December 17, 2018

Why They Run!

Here's how it goes.

Vagne ---- Comes into the room and spreads whoppers.

WE ---- challenge Vagne to defend his claims.

Vagne ---- Suddenly says he has to leave.

WE --- Conclude it was our challenge to your Vagne's whoppers that prompted him to exit.

Saturday, December 15, 2018

Dudley Saves Posts


1744 PM: Dudley -- Sat, Dec 11 10:03am PST -----
Dudley
Natchez, I saved those posts.


Friday, December 14, 2018

Vagne Lies Again

1332   PM:   Vagne   [Quote]     -- 9:12am -- Fri, Dec 14, 18 pst
Vagne
 . . .  Commey admitted she broke the law..remember ?

Misty Decries Incivility

814   PM:   Mistysea   [Quote]     -- 7:36am -- Fri, Dec 14, 18 pst

Mistysea

Deltamike: Chatters like Devious rip others apart in an attempt to make himself look whole.



____________



Like this?










467   PM:   Mistysea     -- Sun, Dec 29 5:08pm PST -----  


 MistySea 


I doubt that Dosset will meet Christ. He will meet Satan. Dosset is the anthesis of everything that Christ taught --- and every time he hides behind his phony posts and lies --- he will seal his fate.

 


Thursday, December 13, 2018

Jajsjki Loses It

Someone offered Jajski some friendly advice. Jajski did NOT appreciate it.


7516   PM:   Jajski   [Quote]     -- 11:09am -- Thu, Dec 13, 18 pst
Jajski
fuck off. Write THAT down

Jajski, Name-calling, and Harassment

7431 PM: Jajski [Quote] -- 10:54am -- Thu, Dec 13, 18 pst
Jajski
and now you are calling ME names ... that is not harassment?

1686 PM: Jajski [Quote] -- 7:52am -- Thu, Dec 1, 16 pst
Jajski
Dudley, Pandora is nothing more than an attention whore ...

Jajski and Wishing

7427 PM: Jajski [Quote] -- 10:53am -- Thu, Dec 13, 18 pst
Jajski

You obviously can say what you wish. That does not make it so.

Jajski Denounces Gossip

7300 PM: Jajski [Quote] -- 10:33am -- Thu, Dec 13, 18 pst
Jajski
I don't think you should gossip about others in here ...

Tuesday, December 11, 2018

Jaski - Against Personal Attacks

Someone complaining about making "it personal" and calling another chatter "Loser" in the same post.  this is almost TOO funny. *S*



693   PM:   Jajski   [Quote]     -- 4:18pm -- Tue, Dec 11, 18 pst
Jajski
sure Natch. Have at it You'll just earn the iggie for your behavior. You always have to make it personal. Loser.

Trump's Height?

Trump "grew" an inch?? Is he obese?








Trump Vows Again to Shut Down the Government

"Yes, if we don't get what we want . . . . I will shut down the government . . . I am proud to shut down the government for border security.'' - Donald Trump - December 11, 2018





"I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it." - Donald Trump - December 11, 2018





https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/trump-i-am-proud-to-shut-down-the-government-for-border-security



Later, Trump will deny it.



"I am proud to shut down the government for border security because the people of this country don't want criminals and people that have lots of problems and drugs pouring into our country," Trump said at a meeting in which he and Democratic leaders openly feuded about the border wall.



"If we don't get what we want one way or the other ... I will shut down the government," Trump said. 






Monday, December 10, 2018

Yes, Trump Can Be Indicted















Can
a sitting president be indicted? Often, in answering this question,
commentators point to Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) opinions answering
in the contrary. To whatever extent the writer agrees or disagrees with
the opinions’ conclusion, the government’s position on the matter is
usually presented as a long-standing and clear “no.”


The
reality is more complicated. The United States has addressed this
question six times in both internal memos and briefs filed in
litigation. And a review of these documents shows that it is far from
clear what criminal prosecution steps are (or should be) precluded—and
that there is no “longstanding policy” against indictment of the
president. Consider the 1973 OLC memo stating that a sitting president
should not be indicted. Far from being authoritative, it was essentially
repudiated within months by the Justice Department in the United
States’ filing in the Supreme Court in United States v. Nixon.  


Likewise,
the most recent opinion—an OLC memo written in 2000—includes brief
statements that a sitting president should not be indicted even if all
further proceedings are postponed. But far from being definitive, this
is a matter that could be reconsidered by the department. Moreover, of
course, OLC opinions are not binding on state prosecutors (though state
charges could raise federalism questions as well). The complex history
of criminal proceedings against presidents and vice presidents suggests
that these issues are not foreclosed.


Perhaps
the most important point that emerges from a review of all the opinions
is this: only once has the United States addressed the question of
whether a president can be an unindicted co-conspirator. The conclusion
was an unequivocal yes. Richard Nixon was so named in the Watergate
indictment, and that inclusion was sustained by Judge John Sirica and
defended by the United States in United States v. Nixon.
(The Supreme Court did not resolve the question.) No department opinion
or filing has ever contradicted that position. The fact that it is
permissible to name a sitting president as unindicted co-conspirator,
moreover, tends significantly to undermine the only argument against
indicting a sitting president. 


(I should note that the U.S. Attorney’s manual
cautions against naming persons as unindicted co-conspirators “[i]n the
absence of some significant justification.” Here, of course, the
“significant justification” would exist if a sitting president is the
only individual in the country who is immune from indictment. Thus, for
that individual alone, the usual better course of indictment would not
be available.)


Here
I want to review each of the half-dozen times that the executive branch
has addressed the question of whether a president can be prosecuted,
indicted or included as an unindicted co-conspirator. The opinions that
conclude that a president cannot be indicted deal mainly with the
question of whether a president can be put on trial. While the
discussions of the option of indicting but postponing trial are more
than a mere afterthought, that option was not the focus of the opinions
and received scant analysis. 


The relevant briefs and memoranda are:


These
documents are worth review not only for their value as precedent but
also for the extensive argumentation they contain on the pertinent
issues.


1. The Sept. 24, 1973, OLC Dixon Memo.
This memo, signed by the head of the Office of Legal Counsel, Robert
Dixon, is a procedural anomaly: It was not addressed to any official and
may not have been made public at the time. It was not mentioned in the
submission by the solicitor general two weeks later in the In re Agnew case.  


Dixon
noted that there was no express provision of the Constitution
conferring any immunity upon the president. The “proper approach” he
wrote, “is to find the proper balance between the normal functions of
the courts and the special responsibilities … of the Presidency.” He
concluded that “criminal proceedings against a President in office
should not go beyond a point where they could result in so serious a
physical interference with the President’s performance of his official
duties that it would amount to an incapacitation.” Thus, “a necessity to
defend a criminal trial and to attend court … would interfere with the
President’s unique official duties.”  


Finally,
Dixon addressed “a possibility not yet mentioned”: that a sitting
president could be indicted but further proceedings could be deferred
until he was no longer in office. Unlike placing a president on trial,
this would not result in a “physical interference” with the president’s
duties. Nevertheless, the memo concludes that this step should not be
taken because of the reputational damage to the president: “The
spectacle of an indicted President still trying to serve as Chief
Executive boggles the imagination.”


Of
particular interest is the memo’s consideration of whether criminal
proceedings against a vice president are precluded. OLC found this to be
a difficult question before concluding that a grand jury could indict
the vice president. The memo notes that Vice President Spiro Agnew was
said to be part of a conspiracy and that it would be difficult to have a
proper indictment of co-conspirators without including the vice
president (a point also true of a conspiracy involving a president).
Moreover,



Another
circumstance counselling prompt presentation of evidence to the grand
jury is that the statute of limitations is about to bar prosecution of
the alleged offenders with respect to some or all of the offenses. The
problem presented by the statute of limitations would be avoided by an
indictment within the statutorily specified period.



(The issue of statute of limitations arises as well in cases involving a president.)


The
Dixon memo concludes that “[a]fter indictment, the question of whether
the Government should … delay prosecution until the expiration of the
Vice President’s duties involves questions of trial strategy” beyond
OLC’s expertise.  


The
conclusion that the sitting president should not be indicted was not
necessarily a categorical constitutional-judgment conclusion but seems,
rather, to be a balance of policy considerations. That, it appears, is
how it was read by the office of Special Prosecutor Leon Jaworski—as I
will describe below.


2. The Oct. 5, 1973, Brief for the United States in In re Agnew.
Lawyers for Vice President Spiro T. Agnew argued that if a president
could not be indicted while in office, that same immunity should apply
to a serving vice president. The vice president should have the same
immunity as the president, they wrote, because he “must maintain himself
in a state of constant preparation to replace the president.” And as
the official with responsibility for initiating the 25th Amendment
removal process, he must “continuously … monitor the ability of the
President” to discharge his duties. These responsibilities, they argued,
were incompatible with being a defendant in a criminal case. Agnew’s
civil action, moreover, sought to enjoin the grand jury from even
“conducting any investigation” into the allegations against Agnew as
well as precluding “issuing any indictment.”  


The
United States, in a response filed in U.S. District Court for the
District of Columbia by Solicitor General Robert Bork, opposed any
immunity from criminal process for a vice president. The solicitor
general did inform the court, however, that if the grand jury were to
return an indictment, the Department of Justice “will hold the
proceedings in abeyance for a reasonable time, if the Vice President
consents to a delay, in order to offer the House of Representatives an
opportunity to consider the desirability of impeachment proceedings.”
What was critical, according to Bork, was this: “The issuance of an
indictment … would in the meantime toll the statute of limitations and
preserve the matter for subsequent judicial resolution.” The memorandum
concluded that while the demands of the presidency preclude subjecting
the chief executive to criminal process, no such importance attaches to
the office of the vice president.


Because
Agnew pleaded no contest to an indictment in a negotiated agreement,
there was no resolution of his claim of immunity from indictment.
Although the charges had been serious (Agnew was said to have accepted
containers of cash in the White House), he was allowed to plead to a
single count and serve no prison time, essentially in exchange for his
resignation from the vice presidency—an outcome that may not have been
possible had Agnew not been susceptible to indictment.  


3. The Feb. 12, 1974, Memorandum to Independent Counsel Leon Jaworski.
The attorneys in the Office of Watergate Special Prosecutor Leon
Jaworski concluded that there was no legal bar to indicting a sitting
president and that the office should recommend either that the grand
jury indict President Nixon or that criminal charges against him be
incorporated into a formal grand jury presentment. Jaworski concluded
that the best course, with impeachment proceedings in the offing, was to
include Nixon as an unindicted co-conspirator in the indictment of the
other Watergate defendants. 


The memo notes at the outset that



As
we understand it, the conclusions regarding indictment of an incumbent
President reached by the Department of Justice, the U.S. Attorney’s
office, and this office, are all consistent: there is nothing in the
language or legislative history of the Constitution that bars indictment
of a sitting president, but there are a number of ‘policy’ factors that
weigh heavily against it. 



The memo finds those policy considerations offset by competing considerations. 



For
us or the grand jury to shirk from an appropriate expression of our
honest assessment of the evidence of the President’s guilt would not
only be a departure from our responsibilities but a dangerous precedent
damaging to the rule of law.



In
deciding whether to indict a sitting president, they asserted, any
considerations of a political nature should be left to Congress, which
can decide if it wishes to immunize a president from prosecution. The
special prosecutor’s office did conclude, however, that the quantum of
proof required to support an indictment of a sitting president should be
quite high: “the evidence of the President’s guilt should be direct,
clear, and compelling and … admit of no misinterpretation.”


Some
of Jaworski’s team thought that President Nixon should be indicted.
Others favored proceeding by a “presentment,” which would set out “in
detail the most important evidence and the Grand Jury’s conclusion that
the President has violated certain criminal statutes and would have been
indicted were he not President.” The office concluded that “there
appears to be no question of the propriety or legality of such a
course….” The memo noted that having the grand jury actually name the
specific indictable crimes for which there was clear evidence of guilt
was important: “This fundamental conclusion [of criminal guilt] should
not be allowed to be lost in a recitation of facts or sources of
evidence that omits the basic judgment involved or leaves it open to
public (and Congressional) speculation and debate.”


The
memo also noted that the president could be named an unindicted
co-conspirator in the indictment of the other conspirators, the course
ultimately chosen by Jaworski. 


4. The June 21, 1974, Reply Brief for the United States in US v. Nixon.
The U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia refused Nixon’s
motion to expunge his inclusion as an unindicted co-conspirator in the
Watergate indictment. Nixon asked the Supreme Court to reverse that
decision. His lawyers argued that since a sitting president could not be
indicted, neither should he be implicated as an unindicted
co-conspirator.


In
this filing on behalf of the United States, Jaworski rejected Nixon’s
premise that a president could not be indicted, stating that “It is an
open and substantial question whether an incumbent President is subject
to indictment.” The brief argues for indictability before concluding
that it is unnecessary to decide that question in order to resolve
whether to permit his inclusion as an unindicted co-conspirator.


(Despite
the filing’s origin in Jaworski’s office, it would be a mistake to
argue that this filing was not in some sense the position of the
Department of Justice. Leon Jaworski and his attorneys were officers of
the Department of Justice assigned by the attorney general the
responsibility for advancing the legal positions of the United States,
including in representations to the U.S. Supreme Court.)  


The
Jaworski filing notes how critical it is to identify the president as
one of the criminal accused: “the identification of each co-conspirator —
regardless of station — is a prerequisite to making his declarations in
furtherance of the conspiracy admissible against the other
conspirators.” 


Although
the brief concludes that “it is by no means clear that a President is
immune from indictment” during his term, the special prosecutor chose
not to indict the sitting president on the basis of “practical
arguments.” Those arguments, however,



cannot fairly be stretched to confer immunity on the President from being identified as an unindicted
co-conspirator, when it is necessary to do so in connection with
criminal proceedings against persons unquestionably liable to
indictment.



Naming
the president as an unindicted co-conspirator was necessary for the
grand jury to return a “true bill,” Jaworski argued, and “required here
to outline the full range of the alleged conspiracy.” There exists,
moreover, “a legitimate public purpose in reporting the fact that
serious criminal charges against a government official have been made.”



The
mere fact that an official has a personal immunity from prosecution
does not bar the prosecution from alleging and proving his complicity as
part of a case against persons who have no such immunity.



It
would not be fair “to the defendants … to blunt the sweep of the
evidence artificially by excluding one person, however prominent and
important, while identifying all others.” The Jaworski filing
acknowledged that naming an incumbent president as an unindicted
criminal co-conspirator may cause the public anguish of a cloud over the
presidency. But “in the public marketplace of ideas” there is little
reason to fear that malicious charges against a president “will receive
credit they do not deserve.”


Notably,
the United States made no mention of the OLC Dixon memo in its filing
in the Supreme Court other than by implication: The filing says that the
Department of Justice agrees that the Constitution does not bar
indictment of a president, perhaps reading the Dixon OLC memo as merely a
statement of policy. What is striking is that the 2000 OLC memo treats
the 1973 Dixon memo as an important precedent but not the more
substantial, more careful subsequent filing in the U.S. Supreme Court.


The
Supreme Court did not answer Nixon’s request to expunge his inclusion
as an unindicted co-conspirator. Finding it unnecessary to answer that
question in order to rule against the president on the subpoena of the
nine tapes, the court dismissed Nixon’s companion cert petition as
improvidently granted. Nixon’s resignation and pardon rendered the
remaining questions moot.    


5. The May 13, 1998, Memorandum to Independent Counsel Starr. This
memorandum was written by professor Ronald Rotunda in response to an
inquiry from Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr. Rotunda concluded that



In
the circumstances of this case, President Clinton is subject to
indictment and criminal prosecution, although it may be the case that he
could not be imprisoned … until after he leaves that office.



The
Rotunda memo is the least persuasive of the opinions in question.
First, its status is unclear. It says that the question was posed by
Starr, but it does not note whether Rotunda, who may have been a paid
consultant, had any official governmental role. There is no indication
that the opinion underwent any review by other officials. 


The
opinion seems to claim too much, in my view, by suggesting that a
president could be not only indicted but actually put on trial while
serving. (Rotunda does not even rule out imprisoning a president.) There
is an informal and partisan flavor to the memo that makes it less
serious than the other arguments put forth by the department.


Rotunda
argues that the then-existing Independent Counsel Act contemplated that
a president could be investigated and questioned, so therefore it must
follow that he can be indicted. This is the obverse of the current
argument made by some that since a president can’t be indicted, he can’t
be questioned. Both positions are based on category mistake. No one has
ever seriously suggested that a president can never be indicted. The
only debate is whether any indictment of a president must be postponed
until he is no longer in office. Since any president can indisputably
be indicted when no longer in office, there is no permanent immunity
that would obviate questioning of a president. 


6. The 2000 OLC Memorandum.
This opinion of the Office of Legal Counsel, signed by Assistant
Attorney General Randolph Moss, is a thorough and thoughtful analysis of
whether a president can be indicted and prosecuted while serving in
office. It appears to have originally been drafted during the time of
the Starr investigation of President Bill Clinton. The case against
putting a president on trial is fully convincing to me. What is not so
clear, however, is whether there is sound basis for withholding an
indictment of a president even if any trial proceedings must await the
end of his term. Like the Dixon memo, the 2000 opinion set out several
obstacles to trying a president. None of those reasons, save one,
applies to naming a president in an indictment. 


The
2000 opinion gives so little thought to the possibility of
indicting-and-postponing that it gives only one reason why such a course
should be precluded: the idea that including the president in an
indictment would cast a “cloud” over the presidency. The notion that
reputational harm alone should preclude a normal part of the system of
justice seems incompatible with the Supreme Court’s decision in Clinton v. Jones,
in which the court set such a high bar for any presidential immunity
from the normal process of litigation that not a single justice found
that actually undergoing a civil trial was precluded. 


It
is hard to square mere reputational harm as a basis for precluding
indictment when the government seems to have established that a
president can be listed as an unindicted co-conspirator. The
reputational difference between being named as an unindicted
co-conspirator in a criminal indictment and being listed as one of those
indicted seems relatively small. The essential difference: naming one
as indicted prevents the statute of limitations from expiring. Why, for a
small reputational difference, would one choose to make being in the
White House a basis for permanently precluding (by operation of the
statute of limitations) an otherwise warranted criminal prosecution?


One
aspect of the 2000 memo is worth noting. It appears to have been
drafted with the case against President Clinton in mind. That was
essentially a one-defendant matter. Thus, the opinion does not grapple
with the significant obstacles to trying a multi-defendant criminal
conspiracy while excluding from the charging document any reference to
one of the conspirators—and perhaps a key conspirator.


For
an extended argument that the terms of Robert Mueller’s appointment and
practice of the Office of Legal Counsel do not require him to conform
to the 2000 OLC position opinion rejecting the option of indicting and
postponing, see Andrew Crespo’s analysis.
In addition to Crespo’s analysis, I would add that the 2000 memo gives
only scant attention to the possible course I believe deserves most
consideration when a sitting president has been found to have committed a
crime: indict-and-postpone. While I would not call the few mentions of
that possibility “mere dicta,” I believe the scant discussion of the
point should not preclude an independent judgment by subsequent
officials. The notion that such a course would cause reputational
harm—though it would not physically interfere with the president’s
attention to his duties—seems to be a point of policy, not
constitutional law. For a helpful analysis of this question, see Bob Bauer’s posting


In any event, OLC has never suggested that a president cannot be an unindicted co-conspirator. 


Conclusions


The
history of positions taken by the executive branch of the United States
on the indictment of a sitting president is more varied and complex
than is generally assumed. For that reason, whether or not a president
can be indicted or named as an unindicted co-conspirator should not be
considered a settled question.


I
am convinced that putting a president on trial would be inconsistent
with the Article II responsibilities of the modern presidency.
Others—Larry Tribe included—are less certain and also point to the 25th
Amendment, arguing that if being on trial or incarcerated precluded a
president from being able to perform his duties, the 25th Amendment
provides a theoretical if impractical avenue for the vice president to
take over in successive 21-day increments during that time. I see the
point, but I believe that approach could too easily set aside the
determination of the electorate. People vote for a president, not a vice
president. It would be no small matter, for example, to have had Sarah
Palin step in for John McCain.


If
a guilty president is not to be indicted, he or she should in any event
be included in the charging instrument as an unindicted co-conspirator,
an option that has been expressly defended by the United States before
the Supreme Court. And once it has been established that a president can
be an unindicted co-conspirator, the case for categorically precluding
indictment of a president is significantly weakened.  


I have argued previously that there should be no categorical bar to the indictment of a sitting president. Clinton v. Jones
establishes that a president has a substantial burden of showing that
normal processes of litigation are incompatible with his duties—and
while that showing can be made for an actual criminal trial, it is
difficult to make such a showing for naming a president in a grand jury
indictment as long as trial proceedings are postponed until a president
is no longer in office.


What,
then, is the argument against indictment? Perhaps it casts a greater
cloud. On the other hand, the most important reason for issuing an
indictment, rather than merely naming the president as unindicted
co-conspirator, is to prevent the statute of limitations from expiring.
This, in my view, is an important consideration. Indeed, a president
might seek reelection just to make sure the limitations period runs on
all his or her crimes while he or she remains in office.


But concluding that a president can be indicted does not mean that he or she should
be indicted, even if that would be called for by the normal operation
of the criminal process. Awaiting action by the House of Representatives
may in some circumstances be the prudent course—though one might
question whether it is appropriate to weigh that institutional factor
variously depending on how realistic it is that a particular House and
Senate would take their responsibilities seriously.


Some
offenses might be seen as better suited for initial consideration by
Congress in the impeachment process. Whether an exercise of executive
authority—such as discharging an official or pardoning someone for an
allegedly corrupt reason—should be grounds for sanction might be seen as
requiring an essential political judgment, perhaps best suited for
elected officials to make. On the other hand, the regular processes of
the federal criminal system might be a better forum for an alleged
complex multi-defendant financial conspiracy including money laundering,
bank fraud, tax evasion, etc. In short, context matters for a special
counsel or other prosecutor considering how best to proceed.


There
is good reason to have the judiciary decide the question of whether an
indictment of a sitting president is categorically barred. This is
especially the case now that the decision process would in significant
part be based upon an interpretation of a Supreme Court decision, Clinton v. Jones.
If a prosecutor included the president in an indictment, the president
would no doubt move to have his or her name stricken. The first question
a judge should ask is, “If I strike
the president from the indictment, will he or she agree to waive any
defense of the statute of limitations that may expire while he or she is
in office?”
If the president refuses to waive the statute of
limitations, that itself would be a good reason for permitting the
indictment, while postponing any further proceedings.


It
is impossible to predict whether a prosecutor would ask the attorney
general for authorization to indict—or to make the president an
unindicted co-conspirator—without knowing the degree and nature of any
criminality that might be uncovered, and how including or not including
the president in an indictment would affect the trial of other
conspirators. But the possibility of including the president in an
indictment is not categorically foreclosed.










Yes, a President CAN Be Indicted


https://www.lawfareblog.com/indicting-president-not-foreclosed-complex-history?fbclid=IwAR3ciaPamJgZOV6Giafwop_t0sygMWXu1I_OXGrmgQ1KYNTrCbHKsWJBI3c
































Can a sitting president be indicted? Often, in answering this question, commentators point to Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) opinions answering in the contrary. To whatever extent the writer agrees or disagrees with the opinions’ conclusion, the government’s position on the matter is usually presented as a long-standing and clear “no.”



The reality is more complicated. The United States has addressed this question six times in both internal memos and briefs filed in litigation. And a review of these documents shows that it is far from clear what criminal prosecution steps are (or should be) precluded—and that there is no “longstanding policy” against indictment of the president. Consider the 1973 OLC memo stating that a sitting president should not be indicted. Far from being authoritative, it was essentially repudiated within months by the Justice Department in the United States’ filing in the Supreme Court in United States v. Nixon.



Likewise, the most recent opinion—an OLC memo written in 2000—includes brief statements that a sitting president should not be indicted even if all further proceedings are postponed. But far from being definitive, this is a matter that could be reconsidered by the department. Moreover, of course, OLC opinions are not binding on state prosecutors (though state charges could raise federalism questions as well). The complex history of criminal proceedings against presidents and vice presidents suggests that these issues are not foreclosed.



Perhaps the most important point that emerges from a review of all the opinions is this: only once has the United States addressed the question of whether a president can be an unindicted co-conspirator. The conclusion was an unequivocal yes. Richard Nixon was so named in the Watergate indictment, and that inclusion was sustained by Judge John Sirica and defended by the United States in United States v. Nixon. (The Supreme Court did not resolve the question.) No department opinion or filing has ever contradicted that position. The fact that it is permissible to name a sitting president as unindicted co-conspirator, moreover, tends significantly to undermine the only argument against indicting a sitting president.



(I should note that the U.S. Attorney’s manual cautions against naming persons as unindicted co-conspirators “[i]n the absence of some significant justification.” Here, of course, the “significant justification” would exist if a sitting president is the only individual in the country who is immune from indictment. Thus, for that individual alone, the usual better course of indictment would not be available.)



Here I want to review each of the half-dozen times that the executive branch has addressed the question of whether a president can be prosecuted, indicted or included as an unindicted co-conspirator. The opinions that conclude that a president cannot be indicted deal mainly with the question of whether a president can be put on trial. While the discussions of the option of indicting but postponing trial are more than a mere afterthought, that option was not the focus of the opinions and received scant analysis.



The relevant briefs and memoranda are:



These documents are worth review not only for their value as precedent but also for the extensive argumentation they contain on the pertinent issues.



1. The Sept. 24, 1973, OLC Dixon Memo. This memo, signed by the head of the Office of Legal Counsel, Robert Dixon, is a procedural anomaly: It was not addressed to any official and may not have been made public at the time. It was not mentioned in the submission by the solicitor general two weeks later in the In re Agnew case.



Dixon noted that there was no express provision of the Constitution conferring any immunity upon the president. The “proper approach” he wrote, “is to find the proper balance between the normal functions of the courts and the special responsibilities … of the Presidency.” He concluded that “criminal proceedings against a President in office should not go beyond a point where they could result in so serious a physical interference with the President’s performance of his official duties that it would amount to an incapacitation.” Thus, “a necessity to defend a criminal trial and to attend court … would interfere with the President’s unique official duties.”



Finally, Dixon addressed “a possibility not yet mentioned”: that a sitting president could be indicted but further proceedings could be deferred until he was no longer in office. Unlike placing a president on trial, this would not result in a “physical interference” with the president’s duties. Nevertheless, the memo concludes that this step should not be taken because of the reputational damage to the president: “The spectacle of an indicted President still trying to serve as Chief Executive boggles the imagination.”



Of particular interest is the memo’s consideration of whether criminal proceedings against a vice president are precluded. OLC found this to be a difficult question before concluding that a grand jury could indict the vice president. The memo notes that Vice President Spiro Agnew was said to be part of a conspiracy and that it would be difficult to have a proper indictment of co-conspirators without including the vice president (a point also true of a conspiracy involving a president). Moreover,


Another circumstance counselling prompt presentation of evidence to the grand jury is that the statute of limitations is about to bar prosecution of the alleged offenders with respect to some or all of the offenses. The problem presented by the statute of limitations would be avoided by an indictment within the statutorily specified period.

(The issue of statute of limitations arises as well in cases involving a president.)

The Dixon memo concludes that “[a]fter indictment, the question of whether the Government should … delay prosecution until the expiration of the Vice President’s duties involves questions of trial strategy” beyond OLC’s expertise.



The conclusion that the sitting president should not be indicted was not necessarily a categorical constitutional-judgment conclusion but seems, rather, to be a balance of policy considerations. That, it appears, is how it was read by the office of Special Prosecutor Leon Jaworski—as I will describe below.



2. The Oct. 5, 1973, Brief for the United States in In re Agnew. Lawyers for Vice President Spiro T. Agnew argued that if a president could not be indicted while in office, that same immunity should apply to a serving vice president. The vice president should have the same immunity as the president, they wrote, because he “must maintain himself in a state of constant preparation to replace the president.” And as the official with responsibility for initiating the 25th Amendment removal process, he must “continuously … monitor the ability of the President” to discharge his duties. These responsibilities, they argued, were incompatible with being a defendant in a criminal case. Agnew’s civil action, moreover, sought to enjoin the grand jury from even “conducting any investigation” into the allegations against Agnew as well as precluding “issuing any indictment.”



The United States, in a response filed in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia by Solicitor General Robert Bork, opposed any immunity from criminal process for a vice president. The solicitor general did inform the court, however, that if the grand jury were to return an indictment, the Department of Justice “will hold the proceedings in abeyance for a reasonable time, if the Vice President consents to a delay, in order to offer the House of Representatives an opportunity to consider the desirability of impeachment proceedings.” What was critical, according to Bork, was this:

“The issuance of an indictment … would in the meantime toll the statute of limitations and preserve the matter for subsequent judicial resolution.” The memorandum concluded that while the demands of the presidency preclude subjecting the chief executive to criminal process, no such importance attaches to the office of the vice president.



Because Agnew pleaded no contest to an indictment in a negotiated agreement, there was no resolution of his claim of immunity from indictment. Although the charges had been serious (Agnew was said to have accepted containers of cash in the White House), he was allowed to plead to a single count and serve no prison time, essentially in exchange for his resignation from the vice presidency—an outcome that may not have been possible had Agnew not been susceptible to indictment.



3. The Feb. 12, 1974, Memorandum to Independent Counsel Leon Jaworski. The attorneys in the Office of Watergate Special Prosecutor Leon Jaworski concluded that there was no legal bar to indicting a sitting president and that the office should recommend either that the grand jury indict President Nixon or that criminal charges against him be incorporated into a formal grand jury presentment. Jaworski concluded that the best course, with impeachment proceedings in the offing, was to include Nixon as an unindicted co-conspirator in the indictment of the other Watergate defendants.



The memo notes at the outset that


As we understand it, the conclusions regarding indictment of an incumbent President reached by the Department of Justice, the U.S. Attorney’s office, and this office, are all consistent: there is nothing in the language or legislative history of the Constitution that bars indictment of a sitting president, but there are a number of ‘policy’ factors that weigh heavily against it. 

The memo finds those policy considerations offset by competing considerations.


For us or the grand jury to shirk from an appropriate expression of our honest assessment of the evidence of the President’s guilt would not only be a departure from our responsibilities but a dangerous precedent damaging to the rule of law.

In deciding whether to indict a sitting president, they asserted, any considerations of a political nature should be left to Congress, which can decide if it wishes to immunize a president from prosecution. The special prosecutor’s office did conclude, however, that the quantum of proof required to support an indictment of a sitting president should be quite high: “the evidence of the President’s guilt should be direct, clear, and compelling and … admit of no misinterpretation.”



Some of Jaworski’s team thought that President Nixon should be indicted. Others favored proceeding by a “presentment,” which would set out “in detail the most important evidence and the Grand Jury’s conclusion that the President has violated certain criminal statutes and would have been indicted were he not President.” The office concluded that “there appears to be no question of the propriety or legality of such a course….” The memo noted that having the grand jury actually name the specific indictable crimes for which there was clear evidence of guilt was important: “This fundamental conclusion [of criminal guilt] should not be allowed to be lost in a recitation of facts or sources of evidence that omits the basic judgment involved or leaves it open to public (and Congressional) speculation and debate.”



The memo also noted that the president could be named an unindicted co-conspirator in the indictment of the other conspirators, the course ultimately chosen by Jaworski.



4. The June 21, 1974, Reply Brief for the United States in US v. Nixon. The U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia refused Nixon’s motion to expunge his inclusion as an unindicted co-conspirator in the Watergate indictment. Nixon asked the Supreme Court to reverse that decision. His lawyers argued that since a sitting president could not be indicted, neither should he be implicated as an unindicted co-conspirator.



In this filing on behalf of the United States, Jaworski rejected Nixon’s premise that a president could not be indicted, stating that “It is an open and substantial question whether an incumbent President is subject to indictment.” The brief argues for indictability before concluding that it is unnecessary to decide that question in order to resolve whether to permit his inclusion as an unindicted co-conspirator.

(Despite the filing’s origin in Jaworski’s office, it would be a mistake to argue that this filing was not in some sense the position of the Department of Justice. Leon Jaworski and his attorneys were officers of the Department of Justice assigned by the attorney general the responsibility for advancing the legal positions of the United States, including in representations to the U.S. Supreme Court.)



The Jaworski filing notes how critical it is to identify the president as one of the criminal accused: “the identification of each co-conspirator — regardless of station — is a prerequisite to making his declarations in furtherance of the conspiracy admissible against the other conspirators.”



Although the brief concludes that “it is by no means clear that a President is immune from indictment” during his term, the special prosecutor chose not to indict the sitting president on the basis of “practical arguments.” Those arguments, however,


cannot fairly be stretched to confer immunity on the President from being identified as an unindicted co-conspirator, when it is necessary to do so in connection with criminal proceedings against persons unquestionably liable to indictment.

Naming the president as an unindicted co-conspirator was necessary for the grand jury to return a “true bill,” Jaworski argued, and “required here to outline the full range of the alleged conspiracy.” There exists, moreover, “a legitimate public purpose in reporting the fact that serious criminal charges against a government official have been made.”


The mere fact that an official has a personal immunity from prosecution does not bar the prosecution from alleging and proving his complicity as part of a case against persons who have no such immunity.

It would not be fair “to the defendants … to blunt the sweep of the evidence artificially by excluding one person, however prominent and important, while identifying all others.” The Jaworski filing acknowledged that naming an incumbent president as an unindicted criminal co-conspirator may cause the public anguish of a cloud over the presidency. But “in the public marketplace of ideas” there is little reason to fear that malicious charges against a president “will receive credit they do not deserve.”

Notably, the United States made no mention of the OLC Dixon memo in its filing in the Supreme Court other than by implication: The filing says that the Department of Justice agrees that the Constitution does not bar indictment of a president, perhaps reading the Dixon OLC memo as merely a statement of policy. What is striking is that the 2000 OLC memo treats the 1973 Dixon memo as an important precedent but not the more substantial, more careful subsequent filing in the U.S. Supreme Court.



The Supreme Court did not answer Nixon’s request to expunge his inclusion as an unindicted co-conspirator. Finding it unnecessary to answer that question in order to rule against the president on the subpoena of the nine tapes, the court dismissed Nixon’s companion cert petition as improvidently granted. Nixon’s resignation and pardon rendered the remaining questions moot.



5. The May 13, 1998, Memorandum to Independent Counsel Starr. This memorandum was written by professor Ronald Rotunda in response to an inquiry from Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr. Rotunda concluded that


In the circumstances of this case, President Clinton is subject to indictment and criminal prosecution, although it may be the case that he could not be imprisoned … until after he leaves that office.

The Rotunda memo is the least persuasive of the opinions in question. First, its status is unclear. It says that the question was posed by Starr, but it does not note whether Rotunda, who may have been a paid consultant, had any official governmental role. There is no indication that the opinion underwent any review by other officials.



The opinion seems to claim too much, in my view, by suggesting that a president could be not only indicted but actually put on trial while serving. (Rotunda does not even rule out imprisoning a president.) There is an informal and partisan flavor to the memo that makes it less serious than the other arguments put forth by the department.



Rotunda argues that the then-existing Independent Counsel Act contemplated that a president could be investigated and questioned, so therefore it must follow that he can be indicted. This is the obverse of the current argument made by some that since a president can’t be indicted, he can’t be questioned. Both positions are based on category mistake. No one has ever seriously suggested that a president can never be indicted. The only debate is whether any indictment of a president must be postponed until he is no longer in office. Since any president can indisputably be indicted when no longer in office, there is no permanent immunity that would obviate questioning of a president.



6. The 2000 OLC Memorandum. This opinion of the Office of Legal Counsel, signed by Assistant Attorney General Randolph Moss, is a thorough and thoughtful analysis of whether a president can be indicted and prosecuted while serving in office. It appears to have originally been drafted during the time of the Starr investigation of President Bill Clinton. The case against putting a president on trial is fully convincing to me. What is not so clear, however, is whether there is sound basis for withholding an indictment of a president even if any trial proceedings must await the end of his term. Like the Dixon memo, the 2000 opinion set out several obstacles to trying a president. None of those reasons, save one, applies to naming a president in an indictment.



The 2000 opinion gives so little thought to the possibility of indicting-and-postponing that it gives only one reason why such a course should be precluded: the idea that including the president in an indictment would cast a “cloud” over the presidency. The notion that reputational harm alone should preclude a normal part of the system of justice seems incompatible with the Supreme Court’s decision in Clinton v. Jones, in which the court set such a high bar for any presidential immunity from the normal process of litigation that not a single justice found that actually undergoing a civil trial was precluded.



It is hard to square mere reputational harm as a basis for precluding indictment when the government seems to have established that a president can be listed as an unindicted co-conspirator. The reputational difference between being named as an unindicted co-conspirator in a criminal indictment and being listed as one of those indicted seems relatively small. The essential difference: naming one as indicted prevents the statute of limitations from expiring. Why, for a small reputational difference, would one choose to make being in the White House a basis for permanently precluding (by operation of the statute of limitations) an otherwise warranted criminal prosecution?



One aspect of the 2000 memo is worth noting. It appears to have been drafted with the case against President Clinton in mind. That was essentially a one-defendant matter. Thus, the opinion does not grapple with the significant obstacles to trying a multi-defendant criminal conspiracy while excluding from the charging document any reference to one of the conspirators—and perhaps a key conspirator.

For an extended argument that the terms of Robert Mueller’s appointment and practice of the Office of Legal Counsel do not require him to conform to the 2000 OLC position opinion rejecting the option of indicting and postponing, see Andrew Crespo’s analysis. In addition to Crespo’s analysis, I would add that the 2000 memo gives only scant attention to the possible course I believe deserves most consideration when a sitting president has been found to have committed a crime: indict-and-postpone.



While I would not call the few mentions of that possibility “mere dicta,” I believe the scant discussion of the point should not preclude an independent judgment by subsequent officials. The notion that such a course would cause reputational harm—though it would not physically interfere with the president’s attention to his duties—seems to be a point of policy, not constitutional law. For a helpful analysis of this question, see Bob Bauer’s posting.



In any event, OLC has never suggested that a president cannot be an unindicted co-conspirator.



Conclusions



The history of positions taken by the executive branch of the United States on the indictment of a sitting president is more varied and complex than is generally assumed. For that reason, whether or not a president can be indicted or named as an unindicted co-conspirator should not be considered a settled question.



I am convinced that putting a president on trial would be inconsistent with the Article II responsibilities of the modern presidency. Others—Larry Tribe included—are less certain and also point to the 25th Amendment, arguing that if being on trial or incarcerated precluded a president from being able to perform his duties, the 25th Amendment provides a theoretical if impractical avenue for the vice president to take over in successive 21-day increments during that time. I see the point, but I believe that approach could too easily set aside the determination of the electorate. People vote for a president, not a vice president. It would be no small matter, for example, to have had Sarah Palin step in for John McCain.



If a guilty president is not to be indicted, he or she should in any event be included in the charging instrument as an unindicted co-conspirator, an option that has been expressly defended by the United States before the Supreme Court. And once it has been established that a president can be an unindicted co-conspirator, the case for categorically precluding indictment of a president is significantly weakened.



I have argued previously that there should be no categorical bar to the indictment of a sitting president. Clinton v. Jones establishes that a president has a substantial burden of showing that normal processes of litigation are incompatible with his duties—and while that showing can be made for an actual criminal trial, it is difficult to make such a showing for naming a president in a grand jury indictment as long as trial proceedings are postponed until a president is no longer in office.



What, then, is the argument against indictment? Perhaps it casts a greater cloud. On the other hand, the most important reason for issuing an indictment, rather than merely naming the president as unindicted co-conspirator, is to prevent the statute of limitations from expiring. This, in my view, is an important consideration. Indeed, a president might seek reelection just to make sure the limitations period runs on all his or her crimes while he or she remains in office.



But concluding that a president can be indicted does not mean that he or she should be indicted, even if that would be called for by the normal operation of the criminal process. Awaiting action by the House of Representatives may in some circumstances be the prudent course—though one might question whether it is appropriate to weigh that institutional factor variously depending on how realistic it is that a particular House and Senate would take their responsibilities seriously.



Some offenses might be seen as better suited for initial consideration by Congress in the impeachment process. Whether an exercise of executive authority—such as discharging an official or pardoning someone for an allegedly corrupt reason—should be grounds for sanction might be seen as requiring an essential political judgment, perhaps best suited for elected officials to make. On the other hand, the regular processes of the federal criminal system might be a better forum for an alleged complex multi-defendant financial conspiracy including money laundering, bank fraud, tax evasion, etc. In short, context matters for a special counsel or other prosecutor considering how best to proceed.



There is good reason to have the judiciary decide the question of whether an indictment of a sitting president is categorically barred. This is especially the case now that the decision process would in significant part be based upon an interpretation of a Supreme Court decision, Clinton v. Jones. If a prosecutor included the president in an indictment, the president would no doubt move to have his or her name stricken. The first question a judge should ask is, “If I strike the president from the indictment, will he or she agree to waive any defense of the statute of limitations that may expire while he or she is in office?” If the president refuses to waive the statute of limitations, that itself would be a good reason for permitting the indictment, while postponing any further proceedings.



It is impossible to predict whether a prosecutor would ask the attorney general for authorization to indict—or to make the president an unindicted co-conspirator—without knowing the degree and nature of any criminality that might be uncovered, and how including or not including the president in an indictment would affect the trial of other conspirators. But the possibility of including the president in an indictment is not categorically foreclosed.




Friday, December 7, 2018

True Confessions

7269   PM:   Charles   [Quote]     -- 10:09pm -- Fri, Dec 7, 18 pst
Charles
Celeste, the last year has been good to me. The three before it were a nightmare. Depression, alcohol and other self destructive behavior.

Trump Implicated with Cohen in Campaign Finance Felonies


“The Government’s Sentencing Memorandum” -  UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK; - United States v MICHAEL COHEN
 


Selected Highlights









“With respect to both payments, Cohen acted with the intent to influence the 2016 presidential election. Cohen coordinated his actions with one or more members of the campaign, including through meetings and phone calls, about the fact, nature and timing of the payments. (PSR ¶ 51). In particular, and as Cohen himself has now admitted, with respect to both payments, he acted in coordination with and at the direction of Individual  1. (PSR ¶¶ 41, 45 ). As a result of Cohen’s actions, neither woman spoke to the press prior to the election. (PSR ¶ 51).” “The Government’s Sentencing Memorandum” -  UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK; - United States v MICHAEL COHEN; pg 11



https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5453404/USDOJ-Cohen-20181207.pdf





“The agreement’s principal purpose was to suppress Woman -1’s story so as to prevent the story from influencing the election. (PSR ¶¶ 41-42)” - The Government’s Sentencing Memorandum -  UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK; - United States v MICHAEL COHEN; pg 12



https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5453404/USDOJ-Cohen-20181207.pdf







“In sum, the nature of Cohen’s conduct underscores the need for a substantial period of incarceration as a means both to promote respect for the law and to deter future abuses by other individuals seeking improperly to influence the electoral process, evade taxes, or lie to financial institutions. 18 U.S .C. § 3553(a)(2)(A) & (a)(2)(B)” - The Government’s Sentencing Memorandum -  UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK; - United States v MICHAEL COHEN; pg 30



https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5453404/USDOJ-Cohen-20181207.pdf





Prosecutors from the SDNY believe the crimes committed by Trump and Cohen are VERY serious.



"Campaign finance crimes, because they are committed in secret and hidden from the victims, are difficult  to  identify  and  prosecute. Nonetheless,  they  have  tremendous  social  cost . . . as they erode faith in elections and perpetuate political corruption."  - The Government’s Sentencing Memorandum -  UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK; - United States v MICHAEL COHEN; pg 28



https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5453404/USDOJ-Cohen-20181207.pdf

Thursday, December 6, 2018

Vagne -- Flat Earther

This one goes down with the "Birds Are Mammals" meme as one for the record books.

299   PM:   Vagne   [Quote]     -- 11:22am -- Thu, Dec 6, 18 pst
Vagne
Veritas: Was it not a fact at one time the earth was flat, and the sun revolved around the earth...?

Alternative Facts?

Welcome to Trumpland.

294   PM:   Vagne   [Quote]     -- 11:21am -- Thu, Dec 6, 18 pst
Vagne
 . . . facts can be wrong...

Vagne on Lying

195   PM:   Vagne   [Quote]     -- 11:00am -- Thu, Dec 6, 18 pst
Vagne
The lie tag is tossed round this place to the point is has no point...imo  . . .

Vagne Asks Us to Explain Our Thinking

135   PM:   Vagne   [Quote]     -- 10:44am -- Thu, Dec 6, 18 pst
Vagne
Maggie: I like to exchange ideas and ask why people think they way they do....

More Ugliness from the Right (Death)

We've noticed that the wingers have become more and more unhinged as Mueller closes in on the Trump crime syndicate.

9394   PM:   27   [Quote]     -- 8:17am -- Thu, Dec 6, 18 pst
27
Scout: I still wish you would die...fuck off because you are Liar and I never posted that

Celeste Wishes for Veritas to Die in a Urinal

We expected that as Mueller closes in on Trump and his crime syndicate,  the right wingers would act MORE and MORE ugly, vicious, hateful, and deplorable. Like THIS, for instance.

8946   PM:   Celeste   [Quote]     -- 7:32am -- Thu, Dec 6, 18 pst
Celeste
Veritas: You're a fuckin' loser and I look forward to the day when you clutch and fall forward...hopefully it'll happen in a dirty public urinal.

Sunnybelle Says Trump Should Be Held Accountable

Requesting Russia commit felonies on his behalf is itself a felony. Firing Comey to impede the Russia investigation is a felony. Fabricating a story to cover up the criminal conspiracy meeting between his campaign and Russian operatives is a felony. Encouraging witnesses NOT to cooperate with federal criminal investigators is a felony. Offering a pardon for corrupt purposes is a crime. Offering Putin a $50MILLION bribe to support his real estate proposal is a felony.

8195   PM:   Sunnybelle   [Quote]     -- 5:51am -- Thu, Dec 6, 18 pst
. . . if trump has committed a crime, he should do the time. no one should get away with criminal activity.

Wednesday, December 5, 2018

Cinders and Civility

2834 PM: Cinders2 [Quote] -- 11:47am -- Fri, Sep 7, 18 pst
Cinders2
Veritas: fuck you

Tuesday, December 4, 2018

Celeste Suggests Bashing babe with 8 Iron

Someone predicted the right wingers would grow nastier, meaner, and more violence prone as they see the walls closing in on Trump and his crime family.

2808   PM:   Celeste   [Quote]     -- 7:11pm -- Tue, Dec 4, 18 pst
Celeste
 . . . Maybe taking an 8 iron to the back of Babe's head would help.

Hogrider? Repulsed by Nastiness?

2635 PM: Tejanobob [Quote] -- 6:40pm -- Tue, Dec 4, 18 pst

Tejanobob

I also miss Hog Rider. I think the frequent nastiness in the room was getting to him.



__________________________



You think the nastiness bothered him? Don't be silly. This isn't the post of someone bothered by nastiness.



1610 PM: Hog_rider [Quote] -- 7:05pm -- Wed, Jul 27, 16 pst

. . .  Go suck your mothers dick........ asshole!





2635 PM: Tejanobob [Quote] -- 6:40pm -- Tue, Dec 4, 18 pst

Tejanobob

I also miss Hog Rider. I think the frequent nastiness in the room was getting to him.

__________________________



You think the nastiness bothered him? Don't be silly. This isn't the post of someone bothered by nastiness.



1636 PM: Hog_rider [Quote] -- 5:29pm -- Fri, Feb 19, 16 pst

I don't agree she's innocent.............. you're a lying cocksucker....... She can't be innocent or guilty until she has a trial . . .

Friday, November 30, 2018

Crazy in Israel?

7732   PM:   Mwjohnson   [Quote]     -- 6:48pm -- Fri, Nov 30, 18 pst

Capo User

Those people in the ME are crazy



7747   PM:   Doss   [Quote]     -- 6:54pm -- Fri, Nov 30, 18 pst

doss

All of them including Israelis, or just the ones you don't like?



7749   PM:   Mwjohnson   [Quote]     -- 6:55pm -- Fri, Nov 30, 18 pst

Capo User

DOSS....Including Israelis. They are not helping either.



7766   PM:   Doss   [Quote]     -- 6:59pm -- Fri, Nov 30, 18 pst

doss

Johnson: Thanks for answering --- I'm curious to note that you think the people of Israel are crazy.



7779   PM:   Mwjohnson   [Quote]     -- 7:05pm -- Fri, Nov 30, 18 pst

Capo User

DOSS....I have been consistent with regards to Israel, all my life. I tend to side with them, yet they do not work hard enough towards peace. They are as crazy as the PLO. 

DeltaMike Admits Russia Put Trump in WH

Now and then a lying Trump Monkey fucks up and tells the truth.

6063   PM:   Deltamike   [Quote]     -- 8:18am -- Fri, Nov 30, 18 pst
Deltamike -God Bless America-
The ''russian'' did such a good job in their effort to get Donald Trump elected that Hillary received 3 million more Votes that President Trump.....good job ruskies.....

Thursday, November 29, 2018

Pale Attacks the SPLC

3587   PM:   Palerider   [Quote]     -- 2:24pm -- Thu, Nov 29, 18 pst
Palerider
SPLC is not much more than a progressive attack dog for Democrats

Angelaa Doesn't Approve of Mueller's Investigation

So are the felons Mueller has indicted and convicted.

3244   PM:   Angelaa   [Quote]     -- 12:19pm -- Thu, Nov 29, 18 pst
Angelaa
I am just tired of this Russia probe crap...

Watsup Opposes Pelosi for Speaker

2679   PM:   Watsup   [Quote]     -- 9:54am -- Thu, Nov 29, 18 pst
Wat
Just as Pelosi is passé. She cannot be elected as speaker unless she has some Republican support.

Wing Nuts - Compulsive Lying

2477   PM:   Prapius   [Quote]     -- 8:58am -- Thu, Nov 29, 18 pst

DOSSET LIES..I JUST SAW TRUMP SAY HE IS NOT CANCELLING ANYTHING..



_____________________



Now for the truth.



"BUENOS AIRES — President Trump on Thursday canceled his planned meeting with President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia . . . upending his plans to cement the relationship between the two leaders."



https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/29/us/politics/trump-putin-meeting-g20.html



____________________________________________________



It took parpus 8 minutes to reverse himself on his lying. *S*

parpus then:

2477 PM: Prapius [Quote] -- 8:58am -- Thu, Nov 29, 18 pst
DOSSET LIES..I JUST SAW TRUMP SAY HE IS NOT CANCELLING ANYTHING..

parpus now:

2491 PM: Prapius [Quote] -- 9:06am -- Thu, Nov 29, 18 pst
Trump blamed the cancellation on the failure of Russia to return ship and sailors recently seized from Ukraine.

Trump Lied about Moscow Tower









Cohen has pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his work on Trump Tower in Moscow.



From Cohen's guilty plea. Put on your
thinking caps and TRY really hard to figure out the identity off
''Individual 1.'' Then think, now WHO could ''family members of
Individual 1 within the Company'' POSSIBLY be. *S*


''The Moscow Project was discussed multiple times within the Company and
did


Blue Monkey

not end in January 2016. Instead, as late as approximately June
2016, COHEN and Individual 2 discussed efforts to obtain Russian
governmental approval for the Moscow Project. COHEN discussed the status
and progress of the Moscow Project with Individual 1 on more than the
three occasions COHEN claimed to the Committee, and he briefed family
members of Individual 1 within the Company about the project.'' 










Wednesday, November 28, 2018

Right Wing Melt Down

Some of of predicted that as Mueller closes in on Trump and his gang, we're going to see a real melt-down on the right.

1301 PM: Celeste [Quote] -- 9:32pm -- Wed, Nov 28, 18 pst
Celeste
Doss: Imzadi is trash.

Cinders, Sources, and Proof

8823 PM: Cinders2 [Quote] -- 2:11pm -- Thu, Sep 6, 18 pst

Cinders2

Penny: source ??



8997 PM: Cinders2 [Quote] -- 11:27am -- Mon, Jun 4, 18 pst

Cinders2

Veritas: what proof you have of that ?



8823 PM: Cinders2 [Quote] -- 2:11pm -- Thu, Sep 6, 18 pst
Cinders2
Penny: source ?? Your claims are no good without a source. 

Dudley Warns About Circular Reasoning

5458 PM: Dudley [Quote] -- 10:41am -- Tue, Nov 27, 18 pst
Dudley
Veritas, yes, it's circular when the only proof given is the assumption that it's true.

Tuesday, November 27, 2018

Celeste Admits Her Disdain for Migrant Children

Some have said all along that Celeste doesn't give one goddamn about the children. Finally, she admits it's true.



7880   PM:   Celeste   [Quote]     -- 10:07pm -- Tue, Nov 27, 18 pst
Celeste

[Quoting doss: "Celeste You also are fine with Trump gassing those toddlers in Mexico." ]
Doss: I personally don't give a flying fuck about those people.

Trump Bubble Butt

Speaking of adult diapers.





https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ds-QZ-pVYAEMAR0.jpg






Haley Does NOT Speak for Trump

6328   PM:   Palerider   [Quote]     -- 2:33pm -- Tue, Nov 27, 18 pst

Palerider

The Ambassador to the UN speaks for the Secretary of State and the Commander in Chief

_________________________



Not really.



"White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders issued a statement officially walking back Haley’s comments . . . " - https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/16/trump-nikki-haley-russia-sanctions-526856



"Trump Declines to Add Sanctions Against Russians, Contradicting Haley" - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/16/us/politics/trump-rejects-sanctions-russia-syria.html

Immigration Causes US to Go "Blue"?

Vagne: Where did you get the idea the country is shifting to the Democrats because of illegal immigration? This is some crazy-ass shit, no matter HOW one cuts it. Very very odd......

5200 PM: Vagne [Quote] -- 9:16am -- Tue, Nov 27, 18 pst
Vagne
Scout: My objection is HOW this country's shifting blue....BECAUSE of illegal immigration....a guaranteed vote for democrats...

Dudley Melts Down - Again

Some one is NOT happy about Manafort getting caught colluding with the Russians.  *S*

4624   PM:   Dudley   [Quote]     -- 7:22am -- Tue, Nov 27, 18 pst
Dudley
Dosset, or, go fuck yourself you irrelevant shithead.

Dwight's Archive

Dwight would rather eat broken glass than try to defend Trump's proposal to take health insurance away from 22 million.



784   PM:   Dwightvol   [Quote]     -- 9:59pm -- Tue, Jul 4, 17 pst

Dwightvol

Ah dear... name calling AND personal attacks...



2872   PM:   Dwightvol   [Quote]     -- 10:58pm -- Thu, Jun 15, 17 pst

Dwightvol

 . . .  If you got hit by a bus, I would hope it would just leave you with every bone in your body broken.



222 PM: Dwightvol [Quote] -- 10:05am -- Tue, May 10, 16 pst

Dwightvol

President Trump will appoint Ted Cruz to the  USSC . . .



330 PM: Dwightvol [Quote] -- 7:47am -- Fri, Mar 4, 16 pst

Dwightvol

Everyone has dirty laundry. Everyone



2033 PM: Dwightvol [Quote] -- 5:55pm -- Wed, Apr 20, 16 pst

Dwightvol

Simp could be carrying on so because the last time the rich wife cuckolded him, she wouldn't even let him eat the cream pie.



9460 PM: Dwightvol [Quote] -- 6:22pm -- Tue, Apr 19, 16 pst

Dwightvol

I respect the choices of others...I do...



[Editor's comment: So you respect a woman choosing to have an abortion.That's a good sign, Dwight. We had you figured for anti-choice.]



9554 PM: Dwightvol [Quote] -- 6:32pm -- Mon, Feb 29, 16 pst

Dwightvol

The Iraq war did not destabilize Lybia, sorry. That is all Hillary and Barry O.



6772 PM: Dwightvol [Quote] -- 10:12pm -- Thu, Mar 3, 16 pst

Dwightvol

All the liberals etc have to do to totally defuse Trump is convince people  who have been ignored to even vilified by their government for years that they haven't been at all..





3100   PM:   Dwightvol   [Quote]     -- 5:47pm -- Thu, Feb 11, 16 pst

Dwightvol

Go Bernie Go!!!





1634   PM:   Dwightvol   [Quote]     -- 2:15pm -- Sat, Feb 13, 16 pst

Dwightvol

I hope the GOP Senate stands firm against whatever leftwingnut activist

radical Obama tries to appoint. Bork that motherfucker, whoever it is.



2550 PM: Dwightvol [Quote] -- 7:36am -- Wed, Jan 27, 16 pst

Dwightvol

Trump's campaign begins its decline with the upcoming debate... Just watch...



3653 PM: Dwightvol [Quote] -- 6:38pm -- Tue, Feb 2, 16 pst

Dwightvol

prove I'm gay...get over here and suck my dick



6332 PM: Dwightvol [Quote] -- 7:04pm -- Thu, Jan 21, 16 pst

Dwightvol

Trump won't be the GOP nominee.



6333 PM: Dwightvol [Quote] -- 7:04pm -- Thu, Jan 21, 16 pst

Dwightvol

Heb Bush will be.



6334 PM: Dwightvol [Quote] -- 7:04pm -- Thu, Jan 21, 16 pst

Dwightvol

Bet the farm.



6391 PM: Dwightvol [Quote] -- 9:43am -- Sun, Nov 15, 15 pst

Dwightvol

Describe the supposed 'dishonesty' on my part. I'll wait.



270 PM: Dwightvol [Quote] -- 10:00am -- Sun, Jan 31, 16 pst

Dwightvol

I see that Walmart is increasing its wages yet again...



"Editors Comment: And, of course, Dwight told us before why Walmart does this. He says it's because they have no choice."



1168 PM: Dwightvol [Quote] -- 7:59am -- Wed, May 13, 15 pst

Dwightvol

Every employer pays the least they can.



6789   PM:   Dwightvol   [Quote]     -- 8:19pm -- Thu, Jul 13, 17 pst

Dwightvol



Grrl... I cannot imagine ever voting for a Progressive.


6561   PM:   Dwightvol   [Quote]     -- 10:59am -- Sun, May 10, 15 pst
Dwightvol
In a media driven political age, money is speech. If that bothers you, amend the First
Amendment. Simple as that.

955 PM: Dwightvol [Quote] -- 6:54pm -- Wed, Feb 10, 16 pst
Dwightvol
I lied.
[Quoting Dwight: "Jake and I have actually met at district klan meetings"]


9266   PM:   Dwightvol   [Quote]     -- 12:33pm -- Tue, Sep 26, 17 pst
Rockytop
Not willfully ignorant here, just stupid. *l*

4586   PM:   Dwightvol   [Quote]     -- 6:49am -- Sun, Jun 25, 17 pst
Dwightvol
Mwjohnson: hile.

395 PM: Dwightvol [Quote] -- 4:11pm -- Mon, Dec 5, 16 pst
Dwightvol
Did it bother anyone on the left that for much of the last 8 yrs, the ACA was whatever-the-fuck the Great Coloured Hope declared it to be?

974 PM: Dwightvol [Quote] -- 6:58pm -- Wed, Feb 10, 16 pst
Dwightvol
Jake is still alive and well. I saw him at the Klan Kristmas Party last December.

7109   PM:   Dwightvol   [Quote]       7:54pm -- Sat, Dec 29, 12 PST   [iggy]
Dwightvol
Jake and I have actually met at district klan meetings.




[Editor' Note: We believe you.]

3864   PM:   Dwightvol   [Quote]     -- 3:32pm -- Sat, Apr 11, 15 pst
Dwightvol
[Quote] Mz_dana - Dwightvol: no--just a silly old man who thinks hes funny He's an antique douche bag.

7280   PM:   Dwightvol   [Quote]     -- 6:58pm -- Fri, Apr 24, 15 pst
Dwightvol
I'll go so far as to say that I've never seen anyone..even mommas... love unconditionally in real life.

7298   PM:   Dwightvol   [Quote]     -- 7:02pm -- Fri, Apr 24, 15 pst
Dwightvol
Like I said... I do not believe in unconditional love.



[Editor's comment: Dwight's bitterness apparently has moved him to renounce his Christian faith."